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The Good Word is a channel for those interested to learn about the Amarr, the Empire and its culture. It's goal is to further international understanding in the spirit of the Pax Amarria. All discussion on that topic is encouraged as long as it stays civil and largely friendly.While generally open to the larger public, any behaviour that breaks the bounds of civility and good mores (esp. endorsement or advertisement of heretic ideas and practices) or is disrupting reasoned dialogue will not be tolerated. Attempts to monopolize the debate (e.g. by questioning the right of anyone to stay in channel who did not break channel rules: If you think someone might violate the rules, message the channel operators, don't call them out in channel, optimally providing logs) are considered disturbing reasoned dialogue.
[ 2015.04.24 02:03:32 ] Aria Jenneth > Sansha Kuvakei's.
[ 2015.04.24 02:04:29 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I, respectfully ... don't see the Nation as ... a very ... "human" institution. It claims to be a utopian experiment ... but ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:04:32 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Then that is a moral stance. You find Sansha Kuvakei's arrogance and actions repugnant, and therefore have decided to not entertain anything that has been touched by them. Am I incorrect?
[ 2015.04.24 02:04:52 ] Aria Jenneth > *she sighs* Um. Sir?
[ 2015.04.24 02:05:07 ] Aria Jenneth > ... moral relativism and ... moral nihilism, are ... respectfully ... not quite the same thing.
[ 2015.04.24 02:05:27 ] Aria Jenneth > Context can make things right or wrong.
[ 2015.04.24 02:05:46 ] Aldrith Shutaq > And which are you?
[ 2015.04.24 02:06:39 ] Aria Jenneth > As a Shuijing Achur, I'm ... a relativist, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:07:14 ] Aldrith Shutaq > So you have decided to identify with a philosophy then?
[ 2015.04.24 02:07:36 ] Aria Jenneth > ... um, you were sort of present when I figured out I had an existing one, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:07:41 ] Aria Jenneth > You reacted with horror.
[ 2015.04.24 02:08:04 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote flickers in but does not interrupt.
[ 2015.04.24 02:08:11 ] Aldrith Shutaq > /emote chuckles. "I wouldn't call my reactions towards anything you have done thus far to be 'horror'."
[ 2015.04.24 02:08:34 ] Aria Jenneth > Ah-- salve, Praefecta.
[ 2015.04.24 02:08:38 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Anyway, you must forgive me, as I have difficulty understanding morally relativistic thinking.
[ 2015.04.24 02:08:55 ] Aria Jenneth > ... well ... um. If I can sort of briefly ... provide a sketch....
[ 2015.04.24 02:09:04 ] Aria Jenneth > Or rather, if ... you wish me to ...?
[ 2015.04.24 02:09:10 ] Aldrith Shutaq > So what you are saying is that your rejection of Sansha Kuvakei has nothing to do with ideas or principles you hold dear?
[ 2015.04.24 02:09:22 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Please do.
[ 2015.04.24 02:10:08 ] Aria Jenneth > Well ... if we start with the idea that we live in a ... morally silent universe ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:10:31 ] Aria Jenneth > ... that communicates its feelings on morality and such ... through consequences, or not at all ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:11:00 ] Aria Jenneth > Even if the universe doesn't ... itself really care what we do ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:11:20 ] Aria Jenneth > ... it doesn't follow that no one does. We're ... here, and we certainly care what is done to us.
[ 2015.04.24 02:11:54 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Right. So you make your own moral principles, no?
[ 2015.04.24 02:12:16 ] Aria Jenneth > Morality in that situation sort of ... boils down to existential courtesy.
[ 2015.04.24 02:12:33 ] Aria Jenneth > ... not distrupting people's lives by doing things that ... lead to destruction.
[ 2015.04.24 02:12:48 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Seems acceptable.
[ 2015.04.24 02:13:21 ] Aria Jenneth > Trying to make a utopia by ... stealing people's ability to ... make independent choices ... as in, tearing that ability out at the root ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:13:33 ] Aria Jenneth > ... ranks pretty high on the "disrupting people's lives" scale.
[ 2015.04.24 02:13:50 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I would say so.
[ 2015.04.24 02:14:12 ] Aldrith Shutaq > So again how does this judgement not count as a moral stance?
[ 2015.04.24 02:14:23 ] Aria Jenneth > I guess it depends on how you define morality, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:14:41 ] Aria Jenneth > ... if it's what ... God thinks, well ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:15:38 ] Aria Jenneth > ... that's ... not so much what it's about. Because I don't ... really know what God thinks.
[ 2015.04.24 02:16:02 ] Aldrith Shutaq > /emote chuckles softly again. "Yes, we all know you are not basing your judgements on our moral codes. But you do seem to be developing one for yourself, no?"
[ 2015.04.24 02:16:51 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I'm not quite sure I didn't ... sort of have one, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:17:02 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Frankly I do not care what someone believes- heathen of faithful alike are capable of moral thought and action. The argument goes that it is simply more difficult for someone outside of the faith as they have a less stable platform to base judgements on
[ 2015.04.24 02:18:12 ] Aldrith Shutaq > As for actual salvation as a result of that moral thought and action... well, I'll leave it for a priest to decide. I'd personally like to believe that God would not waste a righteous heathen's soul, but...
[ 2015.04.24 02:19:44 ] Aria Jenneth > ... there ... does seem to be some difference of opinion on the matter, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:20:22 ] Aldrith Shutaq > There is and always will be. Until, of course, the day when there are no heathens, however that future might look.
[ 2015.04.24 02:20:42 ] Aldrith Shutaq > You have studied the meaning behind the Imperial Seal, yes?
[ 2015.04.24 02:20:56 ] Aldrith Shutaq > And the set of symbols it breaks down into?
[ 2015.04.24 02:22:13 ] Aria Jenneth > *she nods*
[ 2015.04.24 02:22:41 ] Aria Jenneth > ... a set of five.
[ 2015.04.24 02:23:56 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Isn't it, uh, six...?
[ 2015.04.24 02:24:12 ] Aria Jenneth > *literally, physically, bites her tongue*
[ 2015.04.24 02:24:24 ] Aldrith Shutaq > The so-called 'sixth' symbol is heretical.
[ 2015.04.24 02:24:32 ] Aldrith Shutaq > So no, there are five.
[ 2015.04.24 02:25:17 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Oh, is that right...? The person who explained it to me didn't mention that part, I don't think. Pardon me.
[ 2015.04.24 02:25:50 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Sani Sabik like it. It would basically mean 'Man Become God' which is an idea that is rather dear to them.
[ 2015.04.24 02:26:05 ] Shalinea Vyvorant > Hi Everybody! *smiles and waves*
[ 2015.04.24 02:26:06 ] Aldrith Shutaq > A supremely arrogant idea.
[ 2015.04.24 02:26:18 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Ave Ms. Vyvorant.
[ 2015.04.24 02:26:36 ] Shalinea Vyvorant > Ave!
[ 2015.04.24 02:28:30 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Anyway... where I was going with my thought on the Imperial Seal and heathens... I like to think that some heathens are closer to God than they, or even we, think.
[ 2015.04.24 02:30:24 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I'm ... very glad to hear you say so, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:30:38 ] Aria Jenneth > ... and also that ... you're not the first, respectfully.
[ 2015.04.24 02:31:17 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I expect not. Many Amarrian capsuleers are of a slightly more theologically lenient bent.
[ 2015.04.24 02:31:48 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Many conservatives avoid capsuleerhood on theological grounds.
[ 2015.04.24 02:33:16 ] Aria Jenneth > ... um, respectfully, sir, I ... recently had someone tell me just the opposite. Or ... well. I suppose that depends on what is meant by "conservative."
[ 2015.04.24 02:34:10 ] Aria Jenneth > That is, it was ... suggested that my ... views of the Amarr were being skewed by ... talking to too many hard-line Amarrian pilots.
[ 2015.04.24 02:35:20 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Let me guess. They were not Amarrian.
[ 2015.04.24 02:38:02 ] Aria Jenneth > ... actually, you'd ... be mistaken, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:38:26 ] Aria Jenneth > ... possibly someone with a very dim view of, ah, orthodox principles, though.
[ 2015.04.24 02:39:03 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I see.
[ 2015.04.24 02:41:14 ] Aria Jenneth > Admittedly, I think I'd just quoted Senior Pilot Fierach when ... it was said, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:42:00 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Well, their opinion is mistaken. You are generally amongst a rather reformist and inclusive group of Amarrians. Lt. Kernher and Senior Captain Fierach are probably the hardest-lined pilots around, and they are not very active anymore.
[ 2015.04.24 02:42:34 ] Aria Jenneth > ... *nods*
[ 2015.04.24 02:42:38 ] Gwen Ikiryo > These sorts of things are, uh, relative, I'd imagine.
[ 2015.04.24 02:42:59 ] Aria Jenneth > I ... wouldn't have expected many of ... those who consider us "soulless" to ... sign up for capsule training to begin with, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:43:30 ] Aldrith Shutaq > No.
[ 2015.04.24 02:43:51 ] Tabor Murn > Sorry to interrupt, may I ask a question?
[ 2015.04.24 02:44:07 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Just keep than in mind, however, when you consider the Empire as a whole. We are on the Empire's cutting edge. You'll have to dig deeper to see the roots.
[ 2015.04.24 02:44:11 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote tilts her head slightly.
[ 2015.04.24 02:44:48 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Of course, Me. Murn. As long as you keep to firing off questions and not autocannon rounds.
[ 2015.04.24 02:44:50 ] Aldrith Shutaq > /emote smirks.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:00 ] Aldrith Shutaq > *Mr.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:06 ] Sid Afraldir > Ave.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:13 ] Liam Antolliere > /emote is present, but clearly just observing.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:30 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Oh dear... Mr. Afraldir is here too. Hello.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:48 ] Tabor Murn > It's been a long time since I've fired an autocannon your way Pilot Shutaq. Hopefully it will be a while longer.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:58 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote says lightly "As long as people comply witj our fairly limited channel rules, they are permitted to engage in discussion" She gives a slight glance at Aldrith
[ 2015.04.24 02:46:08 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I hope so as well. Your question?
[ 2015.04.24 02:47:44 ] Tabor Murn > Do you feel that non-True Amarr are more prone to taking a hardline Amarrian perspective? Or perhaps I read to much into your inquiry?
[ 2015.04.24 02:48:04 ] Tabor Murn > You brought up two excellent examples.
[ 2015.04.24 02:48:16 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote looks like she wants to respond, but is aware the question was directed to Aldrith so she remains quiet.
[ 2015.04.24 02:48:20 ] Tabor Murn > Are they representative of a larger population?
[ 2015.04.24 02:48:31 ] Aldrith Shutaq > If they are part of the Empire and desire influence within it? Yes. Ni-Kunni holders often try to make themselves seem more conservative than the Imperial average.
[ 2015.04.24 02:49:13 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Khanid and Udorians are under less pressure to do so, but they sometimes tend that way as well.
[ 2015.04.24 02:49:50 ] Aria Jenneth > *listens quietly, and with interest*
[ 2015.04.24 02:50:04 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Free Minmatar very often do this.
[ 2015.04.24 02:50:18 ] Tabor Murn > How so?
[ 2015.04.24 02:51:07 ] Aldrith Shutaq > They take great efforts to make themselves seem more devout than the average Amarrian to avoid the scrutiny of being part of a newer race within the Empire.
[ 2015.04.24 02:51:32 ] Aldrith Shutaq > As I am sure you know, there is plenty of discrimination and judgement heaped upon the fallen races.
[ 2015.04.24 02:51:43 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Free and faithful included.
[ 2015.04.24 02:52:10 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > "I can't say I disagree with Sir Shutaq. People.. can overcompensate."
[ 2015.04.24 02:52:45 ] Tabor Murn > I understand. Thank you for the insight. I have to say there are some newcomers amongst my own people who are prone to such overcompensation as well.
[ 2015.04.24 02:53:17 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Most of the scrutiny comes from True Amarrians, especially those who possess power and do not want competitors for it.
[ 2015.04.24 02:53:28 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Oh... you mean Matari who act too... Matari?
[ 2015.04.24 02:53:53 ] Tabor Murn > Them and a few non-Minmatar residents of the Republic.
[ 2015.04.24 02:54:06 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > Like.. just to pull a name out of the hat.... Annabella Rella?
[ 2015.04.24 02:54:21 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Heh. Yes, I suppose it is a problem with any nation that has a strong sense of culture.
[ 2015.04.24 02:54:24 ] Gwen Ikiryo > When, uh, placed in a position of weakness, it's human nature to either attempt to offset it, or reject it completely, I think. No one is ever really content being weak.
[ 2015.04.24 02:55:10 ] Tabor Murn > I think that is a wise observation Pilot Ikiryo.
[ 2015.04.24 02:55:34 ] Sid Afraldir > That's Miss. Rella.
[ 2015.04.24 02:55:54 ] Tabor Murn > I was actually referring to a Civire pilot.
[ 2015.04.24 02:56:58 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Well, er, that's more or less cereal box psychology.
[ 2015.04.24 02:57:15 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Heh... well, either way, eventually the Ni-Kunni and free Minmatar will be incorporated into the Empire so fully there will no longer be any discrimination. It might take a while, but it will happen.
[ 2015.04.24 02:58:28 ] Aldrith Shutaq > In the meantime we can always try to nudge that culture to be more supportive and accepting.
[ 2015.04.24 02:58:34 ] Gwen Ikiryo > That seems rather optimistic, mister Shutaq. I've, er, heard many people say they expect the Minmatar to end up like the Ealur, at this point. Assuming nothing radical.
[ 2015.04.24 02:58:48 ] Tabor Murn > I mean this in as non-confrontational a way as possible, but I wonder who will integrate first, the Ni-Kunni and Minmatar into the Empire or the Faithful Nefantar and Starkmanir into the Republic?
[ 2015.04.24 02:59:10 ] Tabor Murn > You have a head start, but we're more adaptable.
[ 2015.04.24 02:59:21 ] Aldrith Shutaq > The Ealur... ah. One of the many unfortunate mistakes the Empire has made, in my opinion.
[ 2015.04.24 02:59:50 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Er, well. If it's a mistake, it's one no one seems in a rush to fix.
[ 2015.04.24 02:59:54 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Actually, that's a bit of an understatement.
[ 2015.04.24 03:00:03 ] Gwen Ikiryo > ...I thought it was more or less... Accepted.
[ 2015.04.24 03:00:08 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, probably because it is not one that can be fixed any longer.
[ 2015.04.24 03:01:15 ] Gwen Ikiryo > /emote blinks. "What do you mean by that, if you don't mind me asking, sir?"
[ 2015.04.24 03:01:30 ] Tabor Murn > /emote listens with interest.
[ 2015.04.24 03:01:47 ] Liam Antolliere > I have no real contribution to the conversation, but I would like to simply state my appreciation for the candidness.
[ 2015.04.24 03:01:50 ] Liam Antolliere > Carry on, please.
[ 2015.04.24 03:03:28 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Well, the holders that were given responsibilty of the Ealur approached their duties with a given... preconception of what an Ealur was. They then bred the Ealur to reinforce those conceptions.
[ 2015.04.24 03:03:44 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote grimaces sourly.
[ 2015.04.24 03:04:05 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Rather than lifting them up, they literally bred them to be kept down. This is also an attitude many holders took with the Minmatar until the rebellion.
[ 2015.04.24 03:04:48 ] Aldrith Shutaq > As you can see, the Empire's system of holdership and slavery is quite open to corruption and abuse.
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:07 ] Liam Antolliere > As are all systems of control, I find.
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:11 ] Gwen Ikiryo > ...I'm not sure how I feel about the premise that someone can be "bred" to the point of irreversible subhumanity, er, sir. Genetics are rather designed to be self correcting. Surely whatever was done, can be undone?
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:16 ] Aria Jenneth > *is listening avidly*
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:18 ] Aldrith Shutaq > This is why it is our collective responsibilty to root out such corruption and stamp it out.
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:18 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Or engineered away, failing that?
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:19 ] Ibrahim Tash-Murkon > text> As are all systems made of men.
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:48 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote says lightly "which is why there is the Ministry of Internal Order and the Theology Council and Civic Courts"
[ 2015.04.24 03:06:19 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Engineering is not an option. Breeding them in the opposite genetic direction would be costly and take more generations than it took to get them in the position they have now.
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:06 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Frankly, I am of the opinion that the entire insititution of slavery requires reform, but I am just radical like that...
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:12 ] Aldrith Shutaq > /emote laughs himself off.
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:32 ] Aldrith Shutaq > But, the system worked with the Udorians and Ni-Kunni!
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:35 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote quirks a smile. "Don't blow your cover Sir Shutaq."
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:41 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Isn't it the obligation of the Amarrian state to bring everyone to an eventual existance of enlightened submission to God, though? Shouldn't it be done regardless of the expense?
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:58 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Writing off an entire people because it is unprofitable seems a bit, er...
[ 2015.04.24 03:08:06 ] Liam Antolliere > Forgive my ignorance, but can't the Ealur just...make their own decisions and eventually correct the problem over generations? Do they have to be "bred" or "engineered?"
[ 2015.04.24 03:08:43 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, it should be Ms. Ikiryo, but even we are bound by the chains of practicality at times. This is the problem with the holder system, where the decisions are made by those with economic constraints and the like.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:03 ] Aldrith Shutaq > And yes, if they were free, Mr. Antolliere.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:07 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Which they are not.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:17 ] Liam Antolliere > ....perhaps that should be remedied first.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:34 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > It would be like releasing a toddler into the wild.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:36 ] Aldrith Shutaq > You are welcome to try and remedy that, Mr. Antolliere!
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:46 ] Liam Antolliere > Not at all what I meant, monsieur.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:48 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > They are.. not suited for that. At all! Thanks to what Sir Shutaq described.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:52 ] Aldrith Shutaq > But depending on your approach you might be met with laughter or laser fire.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:54 ] Tabor Murn > If a theocracy has to make concessions to physical and economic realities, is God (or God's clergy) really in control?
[ 2015.04.24 03:10:05 ] Gwen Ikiryo > There are free Ealur, you understand.
[ 2015.04.24 03:10:48 ] Liam Antolliere > /emote sighs. > Forgive my interjection, clearly I am ill-suited to conversations of this nature.
[ 2015.04.24 03:11:18 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > Yes...
[ 2015.04.24 03:11:23 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, there are. And according to demographic data, most free Ealur do not marry, do not procreate, and do not add much more than a low-level slave to our society. It really is unfortunate.
[ 2015.04.24 03:11:25 ] Gwen Ikiryo > And, uh, pardon me, mister Antolliere. I wasn't, per se, suggesting that anything needs to be "corrected", myself. I was just trying to approach the issue from the Amarrian perspective.
[ 2015.04.24 03:11:32 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote nods at Aldrith
[ 2015.04.24 03:11:43 ] Liam Antolliere > Nor was I speaking for you.
[ 2015.04.24 03:12:17 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Anyway... as I said, the Empire failed the Ealur.
[ 2015.04.24 03:12:35 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote exhales and nod slightly.
[ 2015.04.24 03:12:58 ] Aldrith Shutaq > The Empire is, for all of its power and grandeur, fallible, just as any human creation is.
[ 2015.04.24 03:13:47 ] Tabor Murn > All Human institutions are.
[ 2015.04.24 03:15:09 ] Aria Jenneth > ... um. A ... question, Fleet Captain?
[ 2015.04.24 03:15:18 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes?
[ 2015.04.24 03:15:58 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I was just ... reading about the Ealur. It ... seems that, while they don't perform ... spectacularly at intellectual tasks, they ... um ... don't exactly do poorly, either....
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:03 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Anyway, uh, I was going to say, most Amarrians I've spoken to don't seem to regard it as a failure. I've heard people say that the Ealur simply found their "natural place."
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:08 ] Aria Jenneth > Could it be that ... ah ... well ...
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:10 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Miss Kernher, for example.
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:24 ] Aria Jenneth > ... ... that a lot of their situation is just ... a matter of reptutation?
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:39 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Ahah, you're, uh, two steps ahead of me, Aria.
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:54 ] Aria Jenneth > *reputation, even
[ 2015.04.24 03:17:12 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > I disagree. Poor things are quite..... *she simply shakes her head*
[ 2015.04.24 03:17:15 ] Aldrith Shutaq > That the prejudice against the Ealur is entirely that? Yes, it is possible. I must admit, I have never actually met one. Well, I suppose I've seen a few, but they are rather rare...
[ 2015.04.24 03:17:30 ] Gwen Ikiryo > But then, isn't reputation just an extension of genetics, in the Empire? The two, er, do seem to rather blur.
[ 2015.04.24 03:18:25 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, indeed. But I am not going to pretend that the genetics those holders selected for are not going to play a role in their development and ability.
[ 2015.04.24 03:18:56 ] Aria Jenneth > Um. Could that ... have at least partly been a ... factor of their upbringing, Praefecta? I ... mean, respectfully, if you know from the start that someone's going to be a fool ...
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:11 ] Aria Jenneth > ... why trouble trying to teach them?
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:16 ] Tabor Murn > Reputation and Genetics play a role in the Republic as well. A Tribe is a Tribe because of both of those factors.
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:31 ] Aria Jenneth > It ... seems like it could be a self-fulfilling expectation.
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:36 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote looks skeptical. "I can believe that of many situations, Ms. jenneth, but... they are as reduced as a furrier now."
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:47 ] Tabor Murn > The Empire is hardly unique in recognizing that sometimes racial attributes hold true.
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:52 ] Aria Jenneth > ... hm.
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:58 ] Liam Antolliere > /emote grimaces.
[ 2015.04.24 03:20:26 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > The poor things deserve love and compassion yes, and care.
[ 2015.04.24 03:20:32 ] Gwen Ikiryo > ...I find myself... Considerably skeptical of that statement, miss Aspenstar. I haven't met many Ealur, but the couple I have seemed... Wel, human.
[ 2015.04.24 03:21:05 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Kamieras are Kamerias because they were bred and taught to be warriors. Ealur are base laborers because they were bred and taught to be. Humans, however, are far more versitile than animals bred the same way.
[ 2015.04.24 03:21:25 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I'm sure there are some intellectually gifted Ealur. Good luck finding them, however.
[ 2015.04.24 03:21:58 ] Aria Jenneth > ... as they won't have been trained to use their gifts. Understood. Thank you, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 03:22:24 ] Liam Antolliere > That they exist at all should be indication that the problem is not beyind remedying if someone would take the time and care enough to do so. Is there literally no one in the Empire with such an interest?
[ 2015.04.24 03:23:34 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I'm sure there are, but things are difficult. Ealur slaves are valuable and since their bodies are already built for physical labor, many holders would see trying to repurpose them as a waste.
[ 2015.04.24 03:23:45 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Rather like trying to turn a tractor into a racer.
[ 2015.04.24 03:23:49 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Again, mister Antolliere, I must comment that I haven't seen many people with mister Shutaqs perspective. Most people seem content with a group never being fully "elevated", so long as they can still find a niche.
[ 2015.04.24 03:24:20 ] Gwen Ikiryo > I believe there was a group of Ni-Kunni that met the same fate, if I'm not mistaken...? One that resisted Amarrian conquest violently.
[ 2015.04.24 03:25:12 ] Liam Antolliere > ....
[ 2015.04.24 03:25:21 ] Liam Antolliere > I'll just talk to you another time, Fleet Captain. Thank you.
[ 2015.04.24 03:25:58 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, well, as the story goes they were annihilated.
[ 2015.04.24 03:26:42 ] Aldrith Shutaq > More to serve as an example to the rest of our race, I'd suppose. But to be fair, even we disliked the northern desert raiders the Amarr destroyed.
[ 2015.04.24 03:27:47 ] Aldrith Shutaq > That said, I do not condone genocide at any time. Ni-Kunni, Starkmanir, or anyone else. Too many Imperial commanders have taken the expedient route over the righteous one.
[ 2015.04.24 03:28:06 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote nods firmly.
[ 2015.04.24 03:28:18 ] Belrick > It seems I stumbled into an interesting conversation!
[ 2015.04.24 03:28:39 ] Aldrith Shutaq > But as I said, fallible. I for one do not shy away from the Empire's mistakes. I recognize them and try to ensure they are not repeated.
[ 2015.04.24 03:28:54 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Welcome, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 03:29:12 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Well, uh, thank you for your insight on the issue, mister Shutaq.
[ 2015.04.24 03:29:15 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > Ave Belrick.
[ 2015.04.24 03:29:47 ] Belrick > I am not of the Empire or one of her ethnicities, but I have to admit, it is kind of sad how the misdeeds of the Empire automatically discredit the whole faith and government, while the misdeeds of say, the Federation or Republic do not do the same....
[ 2015.04.24 03:30:36 ] Tabor Murn > It's easy to discredit the Republic when you are not a member.
[ 2015.04.24 03:30:49 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, well, as the saying goes... great power, great responsibilty. And the greater the mistakes when one does not live up to that responsibility. It is alright, though. We learn. Slowly, but we learn.
[ 2015.04.24 03:31:03 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Anyway, I must be off. It has been lovely speaking with you all here.
[ 2015.04.24 03:31:17 ] Tabor Murn > Goodnight Pilot Shutaq.
[ 2015.04.24 03:31:24 ] Belrick > I am not trying to discredit the Republic at all, I am just saying how the mistakes of the Empire are used as defacto evidence of systemic injustice, while the mistakes of the other states are not used in the same manner. It is odd.
[ 2015.04.24 03:31:24 ] Tabor Murn > Thank you for your insight.
[ 2015.04.24 03:31:50 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Any time. As long as someone does not make me grumpy, of course.
[ 2015.04.24 03:32:08 ] Tabor Murn > I'll send you some warm milk next time we speak
[ 2015.04.24 03:32:16 ] Aldrith Shutaq > /emote disconnects with small nod and grin.
[ 2015.04.24 03:35:13 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Mm. Perhaps I was a little rude, there.
[ 2015.04.24 03:36:38 ] Aria Jenneth > ... well ... there might be some questions it's ... difficult to ask in a way that won't be a little distressing.
[ 2015.04.24 03:36:58 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > Well.. if Mr. Antolliere has an issue, he can always bring it to me. I am a mod but I try not to interject in a good discussion. I didn't think it was out of line however.
[ 2015.04.24 03:38:04 ] Tabor Murn > Maybe he's just taking a break to better hold his tongue? Sometimes it takes a great deal of self control to debate one's opponent.
[ 2015.04.24 03:38:16 ] Gwen Ikiryo > One needs to pose the difficult questions to recieve the, er, difficult answers, unfortunately. Have to, uh, cross a few lines, to learn things...
[ 2015.04.24 03:43:14 ] Belrick > I have a question, if I may speak and I am not interrupting anything too important.
[ 2015.04.24 03:45:34 ] Aria Jenneth > Um. I'm ... not sure you'd be interrupting much of anything, right now, Mr. Belrick.
[ 2015.04.24 03:45:58 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote nods "Sir Shutaq has retired for the night and so am I"
[ 2015.04.24 03:46:49 ] Shalinea Vyvorant > Have Blessed Dreams Ms Aspenstar!
[ 2015.04.24 03:47:13 ] Tabor Murn > Goodnight,
[ 2015.04.24 03:47:24 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote smiles "Have a Blessed Night"
[ 2015.04.24 03:47:26 ] Tabor Murn > clear weather and pleasant dreams
[ 2015.04.24 03:47:28 ] Belrick > Well, I'm curious what is the Amarrian, uhh Empire, not ethnicity, of course, the religion's opinion on the sisters of eve and the eve gate?
[ 2015.04.24 03:48:43 ] Aria Jenneth > Good night, Praefecta.
[ 2015.04.24 03:49:54 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I'd ... um. Be interested in hearing, as well.
[ 2015.04.24 03:50:35 ] Belrick > I mean, no one knows for sure, as far as I know, exactly what lies beyond the gate, but I'm curious if any theologians have ever piped in. I know the sisters have their belief, but I do not know what Amarrian theologians believe.
[ 2015.04.24 03:51:01 ] Aria Jenneth > ... well ... um. I don't ... actually know, but ...
[ 2015.04.24 03:51:28 ] Gwen Ikiryo > That's a very interesting question, but, er, I fear anyone who might've been up to answer it has left.
[ 2015.04.24 03:51:41 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I gather the Amarr believe that ... humanity was united under God before the fall. So, extrapolating from that ...
[ 2015.04.24 03:52:03 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Hm. Didn't miss Mithra use to be a Sister of Eve? I remember hearing that.
[ 2015.04.24 03:52:14 ] Aria Jenneth > ... it might be that they feel that the ... original believers were those who came through the gate.
[ 2015.04.24 03:52:19 ] Aria Jenneth > ...?
[ 2015.04.24 03:52:28 ] Aria Jenneth > ... Hm. I ... wasn't aware of that.
[ 2015.04.24 03:53:01 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Though, she isn't any more, obviously. I mean... I don't think I'm mistaken...
[ 2015.04.24 03:53:17 ] Gwen Ikiryo > She seems like the person to ask about reconciling the sects beliefs with the Amarrian Faith, is what I'm saying.
[ 2015.04.24 03:53:33 ] Aria Jenneth > *firmly nods*
[ 2015.04.24 03:53:55 ] Aria Jenneth > She's ... pretty knowledgeable, in ... any event.
[ 2015.04.24 03:53:56 ] Tabor Murn > When I started work for the Sisters in Lanngisi, an Amarrian friend of mine derided my choice by saying I had chosen to work for "wormhole worshippers"
[ 2015.04.24 03:54:14 ] Tabor Murn > the implication being that they worship neither a god nor the spirits.
[ 2015.04.24 03:54:43 ] Sid Afraldir > Oh man.
[ 2015.04.24 03:54:45 ] Sid Afraldir > Hi Shalee!
[ 2015.04.24 03:54:48 ] Aria Jenneth > Well ... and that they put a lot of theological weight into the Eve Gate.
[ 2015.04.24 03:55:08 ] Tabor Murn > hence the wormhole worshipper bit I imagine....
[ 2015.04.24 03:55:26 ] Gwen Ikiryo > The Sisters of Eve seem to be somewhere between the Amarrian conception of religion and the Achuran one. They, er, sort of let their faith and pursuits of knowledge mingle.
[ 2015.04.24 03:56:06 ] Tabor Murn > So they are a bit between the only two overtly faithful cultures because they have a religion?
[ 2015.04.24 03:56:08 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I'm ... afraid I ought to depart as well, pilots.
[ 2015.04.24 03:56:10 ] Aria Jenneth > *she yawns*
[ 2015.04.24 03:56:44 ] Gwen Ikiryo > ...Two overtly faithful cultures? What about the Intaki? ...Or the Vheriokor, for that matter?
[ 2015.04.24 03:56:58 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Oh, goodnight, Aria.
[ 2015.04.24 03:57:19 ] Tabor Murn > I'll admit ignorance when it comes to Intaki beliefs, Maybe they could be 3
[ 2015.04.24 03:57:41 ] Aria Jenneth > good night, Ms. Ikryo. Pilots ...
[ 2015.04.24 03:57:42 ] Tabor Murn > The Vhero are not one culture or one religion
[ 2015.04.24 03:57:43 ] Aria Jenneth > Jenneth out.
[ 2015.04.24 03:58:09 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Vherokior culture is very religious, though, is what I mean.
[ 2015.04.24 03:58:29 ] Tabor Murn > religion implies an institution
[ 2015.04.24 03:58:53 ] Gwen Ikiryo > I'd disagree with that. That's an Amarrian conception.
[ 2015.04.24 03:59:16 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Religion requires a set of spiritual beliefs that people follow.
[ 2015.04.24 03:59:18 ] Tabor Murn > I think perhaps you confuse spirituality and philosophy for religion
[ 2015.04.24 03:59:47 ] Tabor Murn > but no set group follow the same beliefs in our culture
[ 2015.04.24 04:00:14 ] Belrick > If I may say, if religion has to be institutionalized, why does the term "organized religion" exist? It would seem to be a linguistic farce, although I admit translations and the devices through which I'm reading communications could be the problem.
[ 2015.04.24 04:00:17 ] Gwen Ikiryo > /emote frowns. "I, er, do no such thing. There's no difference between the three - The idea that there is is imperiocentic."
[ 2015.04.24 04:01:04 ] Tabor Murn > If one people follow different beliefs, different gods and spirits, they are not one people.
[ 2015.04.24 04:01:22 ] Belrick > or at least they are not of one religion?
**signal corrupted***
[ 2015.04.24 02:03:32 ] Aria Jenneth > Sansha Kuvakei's.
[ 2015.04.24 02:04:29 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I, respectfully ... don't see the Nation as ... a very ... "human" institution. It claims to be a utopian experiment ... but ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:04:32 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Then that is a moral stance. You find Sansha Kuvakei's arrogance and actions repugnant, and therefore have decided to not entertain anything that has been touched by them. Am I incorrect?
[ 2015.04.24 02:04:52 ] Aria Jenneth > *she sighs* Um. Sir?
[ 2015.04.24 02:05:07 ] Aria Jenneth > ... moral relativism and ... moral nihilism, are ... respectfully ... not quite the same thing.
[ 2015.04.24 02:05:27 ] Aria Jenneth > Context can make things right or wrong.
[ 2015.04.24 02:05:46 ] Aldrith Shutaq > And which are you?
[ 2015.04.24 02:06:39 ] Aria Jenneth > As a Shuijing Achur, I'm ... a relativist, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:07:14 ] Aldrith Shutaq > So you have decided to identify with a philosophy then?
[ 2015.04.24 02:07:36 ] Aria Jenneth > ... um, you were sort of present when I figured out I had an existing one, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:07:41 ] Aria Jenneth > You reacted with horror.
[ 2015.04.24 02:08:04 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote flickers in but does not interrupt.
[ 2015.04.24 02:08:11 ] Aldrith Shutaq > /emote chuckles. "I wouldn't call my reactions towards anything you have done thus far to be 'horror'."
[ 2015.04.24 02:08:34 ] Aria Jenneth > Ah-- salve, Praefecta.
[ 2015.04.24 02:08:38 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Anyway, you must forgive me, as I have difficulty understanding morally relativistic thinking.
[ 2015.04.24 02:08:55 ] Aria Jenneth > ... well ... um. If I can sort of briefly ... provide a sketch....
[ 2015.04.24 02:09:04 ] Aria Jenneth > Or rather, if ... you wish me to ...?
[ 2015.04.24 02:09:10 ] Aldrith Shutaq > So what you are saying is that your rejection of Sansha Kuvakei has nothing to do with ideas or principles you hold dear?
[ 2015.04.24 02:09:22 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Please do.
[ 2015.04.24 02:10:08 ] Aria Jenneth > Well ... if we start with the idea that we live in a ... morally silent universe ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:10:31 ] Aria Jenneth > ... that communicates its feelings on morality and such ... through consequences, or not at all ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:11:00 ] Aria Jenneth > Even if the universe doesn't ... itself really care what we do ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:11:20 ] Aria Jenneth > ... it doesn't follow that no one does. We're ... here, and we certainly care what is done to us.
[ 2015.04.24 02:11:54 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Right. So you make your own moral principles, no?
[ 2015.04.24 02:12:16 ] Aria Jenneth > Morality in that situation sort of ... boils down to existential courtesy.
[ 2015.04.24 02:12:33 ] Aria Jenneth > ... not distrupting people's lives by doing things that ... lead to destruction.
[ 2015.04.24 02:12:48 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Seems acceptable.
[ 2015.04.24 02:13:21 ] Aria Jenneth > Trying to make a utopia by ... stealing people's ability to ... make independent choices ... as in, tearing that ability out at the root ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:13:33 ] Aria Jenneth > ... ranks pretty high on the "disrupting people's lives" scale.
[ 2015.04.24 02:13:50 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I would say so.
[ 2015.04.24 02:14:12 ] Aldrith Shutaq > So again how does this judgement not count as a moral stance?
[ 2015.04.24 02:14:23 ] Aria Jenneth > I guess it depends on how you define morality, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:14:41 ] Aria Jenneth > ... if it's what ... God thinks, well ...
[ 2015.04.24 02:15:38 ] Aria Jenneth > ... that's ... not so much what it's about. Because I don't ... really know what God thinks.
[ 2015.04.24 02:16:02 ] Aldrith Shutaq > /emote chuckles softly again. "Yes, we all know you are not basing your judgements on our moral codes. But you do seem to be developing one for yourself, no?"
[ 2015.04.24 02:16:51 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I'm not quite sure I didn't ... sort of have one, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:17:02 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Frankly I do not care what someone believes- heathen of faithful alike are capable of moral thought and action. The argument goes that it is simply more difficult for someone outside of the faith as they have a less stable platform to base judgements on
[ 2015.04.24 02:18:12 ] Aldrith Shutaq > As for actual salvation as a result of that moral thought and action... well, I'll leave it for a priest to decide. I'd personally like to believe that God would not waste a righteous heathen's soul, but...
[ 2015.04.24 02:19:44 ] Aria Jenneth > ... there ... does seem to be some difference of opinion on the matter, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:20:22 ] Aldrith Shutaq > There is and always will be. Until, of course, the day when there are no heathens, however that future might look.
[ 2015.04.24 02:20:42 ] Aldrith Shutaq > You have studied the meaning behind the Imperial Seal, yes?
[ 2015.04.24 02:20:56 ] Aldrith Shutaq > And the set of symbols it breaks down into?
[ 2015.04.24 02:22:13 ] Aria Jenneth > *she nods*
[ 2015.04.24 02:22:41 ] Aria Jenneth > ... a set of five.
[ 2015.04.24 02:23:56 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Isn't it, uh, six...?
[ 2015.04.24 02:24:12 ] Aria Jenneth > *literally, physically, bites her tongue*
[ 2015.04.24 02:24:24 ] Aldrith Shutaq > The so-called 'sixth' symbol is heretical.
[ 2015.04.24 02:24:32 ] Aldrith Shutaq > So no, there are five.
[ 2015.04.24 02:25:17 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Oh, is that right...? The person who explained it to me didn't mention that part, I don't think. Pardon me.
[ 2015.04.24 02:25:50 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Sani Sabik like it. It would basically mean 'Man Become God' which is an idea that is rather dear to them.
[ 2015.04.24 02:26:05 ] Shalinea Vyvorant > Hi Everybody! *smiles and waves*
[ 2015.04.24 02:26:06 ] Aldrith Shutaq > A supremely arrogant idea.
[ 2015.04.24 02:26:18 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Ave Ms. Vyvorant.
[ 2015.04.24 02:26:36 ] Shalinea Vyvorant > Ave!
[ 2015.04.24 02:28:30 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Anyway... where I was going with my thought on the Imperial Seal and heathens... I like to think that some heathens are closer to God than they, or even we, think.
[ 2015.04.24 02:30:24 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I'm ... very glad to hear you say so, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:30:38 ] Aria Jenneth > ... and also that ... you're not the first, respectfully.
[ 2015.04.24 02:31:17 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I expect not. Many Amarrian capsuleers are of a slightly more theologically lenient bent.
[ 2015.04.24 02:31:48 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Many conservatives avoid capsuleerhood on theological grounds.
[ 2015.04.24 02:33:16 ] Aria Jenneth > ... um, respectfully, sir, I ... recently had someone tell me just the opposite. Or ... well. I suppose that depends on what is meant by "conservative."
[ 2015.04.24 02:34:10 ] Aria Jenneth > That is, it was ... suggested that my ... views of the Amarr were being skewed by ... talking to too many hard-line Amarrian pilots.
[ 2015.04.24 02:35:20 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Let me guess. They were not Amarrian.
[ 2015.04.24 02:38:02 ] Aria Jenneth > ... actually, you'd ... be mistaken, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:38:26 ] Aria Jenneth > ... possibly someone with a very dim view of, ah, orthodox principles, though.
[ 2015.04.24 02:39:03 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I see.
[ 2015.04.24 02:41:14 ] Aria Jenneth > Admittedly, I think I'd just quoted Senior Pilot Fierach when ... it was said, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:42:00 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Well, their opinion is mistaken. You are generally amongst a rather reformist and inclusive group of Amarrians. Lt. Kernher and Senior Captain Fierach are probably the hardest-lined pilots around, and they are not very active anymore.
[ 2015.04.24 02:42:34 ] Aria Jenneth > ... *nods*
[ 2015.04.24 02:42:38 ] Gwen Ikiryo > These sorts of things are, uh, relative, I'd imagine.
[ 2015.04.24 02:42:59 ] Aria Jenneth > I ... wouldn't have expected many of ... those who consider us "soulless" to ... sign up for capsule training to begin with, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 02:43:30 ] Aldrith Shutaq > No.
[ 2015.04.24 02:43:51 ] Tabor Murn > Sorry to interrupt, may I ask a question?
[ 2015.04.24 02:44:07 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Just keep than in mind, however, when you consider the Empire as a whole. We are on the Empire's cutting edge. You'll have to dig deeper to see the roots.
[ 2015.04.24 02:44:11 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote tilts her head slightly.
[ 2015.04.24 02:44:48 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Of course, Me. Murn. As long as you keep to firing off questions and not autocannon rounds.
[ 2015.04.24 02:44:50 ] Aldrith Shutaq > /emote smirks.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:00 ] Aldrith Shutaq > *Mr.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:06 ] Sid Afraldir > Ave.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:13 ] Liam Antolliere > /emote is present, but clearly just observing.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:30 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Oh dear... Mr. Afraldir is here too. Hello.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:48 ] Tabor Murn > It's been a long time since I've fired an autocannon your way Pilot Shutaq. Hopefully it will be a while longer.
[ 2015.04.24 02:45:58 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote says lightly "As long as people comply witj our fairly limited channel rules, they are permitted to engage in discussion" She gives a slight glance at Aldrith
[ 2015.04.24 02:46:08 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I hope so as well. Your question?
[ 2015.04.24 02:47:44 ] Tabor Murn > Do you feel that non-True Amarr are more prone to taking a hardline Amarrian perspective? Or perhaps I read to much into your inquiry?
[ 2015.04.24 02:48:04 ] Tabor Murn > You brought up two excellent examples.
[ 2015.04.24 02:48:16 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote looks like she wants to respond, but is aware the question was directed to Aldrith so she remains quiet.
[ 2015.04.24 02:48:20 ] Tabor Murn > Are they representative of a larger population?
[ 2015.04.24 02:48:31 ] Aldrith Shutaq > If they are part of the Empire and desire influence within it? Yes. Ni-Kunni holders often try to make themselves seem more conservative than the Imperial average.
[ 2015.04.24 02:49:13 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Khanid and Udorians are under less pressure to do so, but they sometimes tend that way as well.
[ 2015.04.24 02:49:50 ] Aria Jenneth > *listens quietly, and with interest*
[ 2015.04.24 02:50:04 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Free Minmatar very often do this.
[ 2015.04.24 02:50:18 ] Tabor Murn > How so?
[ 2015.04.24 02:51:07 ] Aldrith Shutaq > They take great efforts to make themselves seem more devout than the average Amarrian to avoid the scrutiny of being part of a newer race within the Empire.
[ 2015.04.24 02:51:32 ] Aldrith Shutaq > As I am sure you know, there is plenty of discrimination and judgement heaped upon the fallen races.
[ 2015.04.24 02:51:43 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Free and faithful included.
[ 2015.04.24 02:52:10 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > "I can't say I disagree with Sir Shutaq. People.. can overcompensate."
[ 2015.04.24 02:52:45 ] Tabor Murn > I understand. Thank you for the insight. I have to say there are some newcomers amongst my own people who are prone to such overcompensation as well.
[ 2015.04.24 02:53:17 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Most of the scrutiny comes from True Amarrians, especially those who possess power and do not want competitors for it.
[ 2015.04.24 02:53:28 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Oh... you mean Matari who act too... Matari?
[ 2015.04.24 02:53:53 ] Tabor Murn > Them and a few non-Minmatar residents of the Republic.
[ 2015.04.24 02:54:06 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > Like.. just to pull a name out of the hat.... Annabella Rella?
[ 2015.04.24 02:54:21 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Heh. Yes, I suppose it is a problem with any nation that has a strong sense of culture.
[ 2015.04.24 02:54:24 ] Gwen Ikiryo > When, uh, placed in a position of weakness, it's human nature to either attempt to offset it, or reject it completely, I think. No one is ever really content being weak.
[ 2015.04.24 02:55:10 ] Tabor Murn > I think that is a wise observation Pilot Ikiryo.
[ 2015.04.24 02:55:34 ] Sid Afraldir > That's Miss. Rella.
[ 2015.04.24 02:55:54 ] Tabor Murn > I was actually referring to a Civire pilot.
[ 2015.04.24 02:56:58 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Well, er, that's more or less cereal box psychology.
[ 2015.04.24 02:57:15 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Heh... well, either way, eventually the Ni-Kunni and free Minmatar will be incorporated into the Empire so fully there will no longer be any discrimination. It might take a while, but it will happen.
[ 2015.04.24 02:58:28 ] Aldrith Shutaq > In the meantime we can always try to nudge that culture to be more supportive and accepting.
[ 2015.04.24 02:58:34 ] Gwen Ikiryo > That seems rather optimistic, mister Shutaq. I've, er, heard many people say they expect the Minmatar to end up like the Ealur, at this point. Assuming nothing radical.
[ 2015.04.24 02:58:48 ] Tabor Murn > I mean this in as non-confrontational a way as possible, but I wonder who will integrate first, the Ni-Kunni and Minmatar into the Empire or the Faithful Nefantar and Starkmanir into the Republic?
[ 2015.04.24 02:59:10 ] Tabor Murn > You have a head start, but we're more adaptable.
[ 2015.04.24 02:59:21 ] Aldrith Shutaq > The Ealur... ah. One of the many unfortunate mistakes the Empire has made, in my opinion.
[ 2015.04.24 02:59:50 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Er, well. If it's a mistake, it's one no one seems in a rush to fix.
[ 2015.04.24 02:59:54 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Actually, that's a bit of an understatement.
[ 2015.04.24 03:00:03 ] Gwen Ikiryo > ...I thought it was more or less... Accepted.
[ 2015.04.24 03:00:08 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, probably because it is not one that can be fixed any longer.
[ 2015.04.24 03:01:15 ] Gwen Ikiryo > /emote blinks. "What do you mean by that, if you don't mind me asking, sir?"
[ 2015.04.24 03:01:30 ] Tabor Murn > /emote listens with interest.
[ 2015.04.24 03:01:47 ] Liam Antolliere > I have no real contribution to the conversation, but I would like to simply state my appreciation for the candidness.
[ 2015.04.24 03:01:50 ] Liam Antolliere > Carry on, please.
[ 2015.04.24 03:03:28 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Well, the holders that were given responsibilty of the Ealur approached their duties with a given... preconception of what an Ealur was. They then bred the Ealur to reinforce those conceptions.
[ 2015.04.24 03:03:44 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote grimaces sourly.
[ 2015.04.24 03:04:05 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Rather than lifting them up, they literally bred them to be kept down. This is also an attitude many holders took with the Minmatar until the rebellion.
[ 2015.04.24 03:04:48 ] Aldrith Shutaq > As you can see, the Empire's system of holdership and slavery is quite open to corruption and abuse.
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:07 ] Liam Antolliere > As are all systems of control, I find.
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:11 ] Gwen Ikiryo > ...I'm not sure how I feel about the premise that someone can be "bred" to the point of irreversible subhumanity, er, sir. Genetics are rather designed to be self correcting. Surely whatever was done, can be undone?
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:16 ] Aria Jenneth > *is listening avidly*
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:18 ] Aldrith Shutaq > This is why it is our collective responsibilty to root out such corruption and stamp it out.
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:18 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Or engineered away, failing that?
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:19 ] Ibrahim Tash-Murkon > text> As are all systems made of men.
[ 2015.04.24 03:05:48 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote says lightly "which is why there is the Ministry of Internal Order and the Theology Council and Civic Courts"
[ 2015.04.24 03:06:19 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Engineering is not an option. Breeding them in the opposite genetic direction would be costly and take more generations than it took to get them in the position they have now.
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:06 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Frankly, I am of the opinion that the entire insititution of slavery requires reform, but I am just radical like that...
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:12 ] Aldrith Shutaq > /emote laughs himself off.
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:32 ] Aldrith Shutaq > But, the system worked with the Udorians and Ni-Kunni!
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:35 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote quirks a smile. "Don't blow your cover Sir Shutaq."
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:41 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Isn't it the obligation of the Amarrian state to bring everyone to an eventual existance of enlightened submission to God, though? Shouldn't it be done regardless of the expense?
[ 2015.04.24 03:07:58 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Writing off an entire people because it is unprofitable seems a bit, er...
[ 2015.04.24 03:08:06 ] Liam Antolliere > Forgive my ignorance, but can't the Ealur just...make their own decisions and eventually correct the problem over generations? Do they have to be "bred" or "engineered?"
[ 2015.04.24 03:08:43 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, it should be Ms. Ikiryo, but even we are bound by the chains of practicality at times. This is the problem with the holder system, where the decisions are made by those with economic constraints and the like.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:03 ] Aldrith Shutaq > And yes, if they were free, Mr. Antolliere.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:07 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Which they are not.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:17 ] Liam Antolliere > ....perhaps that should be remedied first.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:34 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > It would be like releasing a toddler into the wild.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:36 ] Aldrith Shutaq > You are welcome to try and remedy that, Mr. Antolliere!
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:46 ] Liam Antolliere > Not at all what I meant, monsieur.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:48 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > They are.. not suited for that. At all! Thanks to what Sir Shutaq described.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:52 ] Aldrith Shutaq > But depending on your approach you might be met with laughter or laser fire.
[ 2015.04.24 03:09:54 ] Tabor Murn > If a theocracy has to make concessions to physical and economic realities, is God (or God's clergy) really in control?
[ 2015.04.24 03:10:05 ] Gwen Ikiryo > There are free Ealur, you understand.
[ 2015.04.24 03:10:48 ] Liam Antolliere > /emote sighs. > Forgive my interjection, clearly I am ill-suited to conversations of this nature.
[ 2015.04.24 03:11:18 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > Yes...
[ 2015.04.24 03:11:23 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, there are. And according to demographic data, most free Ealur do not marry, do not procreate, and do not add much more than a low-level slave to our society. It really is unfortunate.
[ 2015.04.24 03:11:25 ] Gwen Ikiryo > And, uh, pardon me, mister Antolliere. I wasn't, per se, suggesting that anything needs to be "corrected", myself. I was just trying to approach the issue from the Amarrian perspective.
[ 2015.04.24 03:11:32 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote nods at Aldrith
[ 2015.04.24 03:11:43 ] Liam Antolliere > Nor was I speaking for you.
[ 2015.04.24 03:12:17 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Anyway... as I said, the Empire failed the Ealur.
[ 2015.04.24 03:12:35 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote exhales and nod slightly.
[ 2015.04.24 03:12:58 ] Aldrith Shutaq > The Empire is, for all of its power and grandeur, fallible, just as any human creation is.
[ 2015.04.24 03:13:47 ] Tabor Murn > All Human institutions are.
[ 2015.04.24 03:15:09 ] Aria Jenneth > ... um. A ... question, Fleet Captain?
[ 2015.04.24 03:15:18 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes?
[ 2015.04.24 03:15:58 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I was just ... reading about the Ealur. It ... seems that, while they don't perform ... spectacularly at intellectual tasks, they ... um ... don't exactly do poorly, either....
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:03 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Anyway, uh, I was going to say, most Amarrians I've spoken to don't seem to regard it as a failure. I've heard people say that the Ealur simply found their "natural place."
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:08 ] Aria Jenneth > Could it be that ... ah ... well ...
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:10 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Miss Kernher, for example.
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:24 ] Aria Jenneth > ... ... that a lot of their situation is just ... a matter of reptutation?
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:39 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Ahah, you're, uh, two steps ahead of me, Aria.
[ 2015.04.24 03:16:54 ] Aria Jenneth > *reputation, even
[ 2015.04.24 03:17:12 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > I disagree. Poor things are quite..... *she simply shakes her head*
[ 2015.04.24 03:17:15 ] Aldrith Shutaq > That the prejudice against the Ealur is entirely that? Yes, it is possible. I must admit, I have never actually met one. Well, I suppose I've seen a few, but they are rather rare...
[ 2015.04.24 03:17:30 ] Gwen Ikiryo > But then, isn't reputation just an extension of genetics, in the Empire? The two, er, do seem to rather blur.
[ 2015.04.24 03:18:25 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, indeed. But I am not going to pretend that the genetics those holders selected for are not going to play a role in their development and ability.
[ 2015.04.24 03:18:56 ] Aria Jenneth > Um. Could that ... have at least partly been a ... factor of their upbringing, Praefecta? I ... mean, respectfully, if you know from the start that someone's going to be a fool ...
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:11 ] Aria Jenneth > ... why trouble trying to teach them?
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:16 ] Tabor Murn > Reputation and Genetics play a role in the Republic as well. A Tribe is a Tribe because of both of those factors.
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:31 ] Aria Jenneth > It ... seems like it could be a self-fulfilling expectation.
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:36 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote looks skeptical. "I can believe that of many situations, Ms. jenneth, but... they are as reduced as a furrier now."
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:47 ] Tabor Murn > The Empire is hardly unique in recognizing that sometimes racial attributes hold true.
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:52 ] Aria Jenneth > ... hm.
[ 2015.04.24 03:19:58 ] Liam Antolliere > /emote grimaces.
[ 2015.04.24 03:20:26 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > The poor things deserve love and compassion yes, and care.
[ 2015.04.24 03:20:32 ] Gwen Ikiryo > ...I find myself... Considerably skeptical of that statement, miss Aspenstar. I haven't met many Ealur, but the couple I have seemed... Wel, human.
[ 2015.04.24 03:21:05 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Kamieras are Kamerias because they were bred and taught to be warriors. Ealur are base laborers because they were bred and taught to be. Humans, however, are far more versitile than animals bred the same way.
[ 2015.04.24 03:21:25 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I'm sure there are some intellectually gifted Ealur. Good luck finding them, however.
[ 2015.04.24 03:21:58 ] Aria Jenneth > ... as they won't have been trained to use their gifts. Understood. Thank you, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 03:22:24 ] Liam Antolliere > That they exist at all should be indication that the problem is not beyind remedying if someone would take the time and care enough to do so. Is there literally no one in the Empire with such an interest?
[ 2015.04.24 03:23:34 ] Aldrith Shutaq > I'm sure there are, but things are difficult. Ealur slaves are valuable and since their bodies are already built for physical labor, many holders would see trying to repurpose them as a waste.
[ 2015.04.24 03:23:45 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Rather like trying to turn a tractor into a racer.
[ 2015.04.24 03:23:49 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Again, mister Antolliere, I must comment that I haven't seen many people with mister Shutaqs perspective. Most people seem content with a group never being fully "elevated", so long as they can still find a niche.
[ 2015.04.24 03:24:20 ] Gwen Ikiryo > I believe there was a group of Ni-Kunni that met the same fate, if I'm not mistaken...? One that resisted Amarrian conquest violently.
[ 2015.04.24 03:25:12 ] Liam Antolliere > ....
[ 2015.04.24 03:25:21 ] Liam Antolliere > I'll just talk to you another time, Fleet Captain. Thank you.
[ 2015.04.24 03:25:58 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, well, as the story goes they were annihilated.
[ 2015.04.24 03:26:42 ] Aldrith Shutaq > More to serve as an example to the rest of our race, I'd suppose. But to be fair, even we disliked the northern desert raiders the Amarr destroyed.
[ 2015.04.24 03:27:47 ] Aldrith Shutaq > That said, I do not condone genocide at any time. Ni-Kunni, Starkmanir, or anyone else. Too many Imperial commanders have taken the expedient route over the righteous one.
[ 2015.04.24 03:28:06 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote nods firmly.
[ 2015.04.24 03:28:18 ] Belrick > It seems I stumbled into an interesting conversation!
[ 2015.04.24 03:28:39 ] Aldrith Shutaq > But as I said, fallible. I for one do not shy away from the Empire's mistakes. I recognize them and try to ensure they are not repeated.
[ 2015.04.24 03:28:54 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Welcome, sir.
[ 2015.04.24 03:29:12 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Well, uh, thank you for your insight on the issue, mister Shutaq.
[ 2015.04.24 03:29:15 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > Ave Belrick.
[ 2015.04.24 03:29:47 ] Belrick > I am not of the Empire or one of her ethnicities, but I have to admit, it is kind of sad how the misdeeds of the Empire automatically discredit the whole faith and government, while the misdeeds of say, the Federation or Republic do not do the same....
[ 2015.04.24 03:30:36 ] Tabor Murn > It's easy to discredit the Republic when you are not a member.
[ 2015.04.24 03:30:49 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Yes, well, as the saying goes... great power, great responsibilty. And the greater the mistakes when one does not live up to that responsibility. It is alright, though. We learn. Slowly, but we learn.
[ 2015.04.24 03:31:03 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Anyway, I must be off. It has been lovely speaking with you all here.
[ 2015.04.24 03:31:17 ] Tabor Murn > Goodnight Pilot Shutaq.
[ 2015.04.24 03:31:24 ] Belrick > I am not trying to discredit the Republic at all, I am just saying how the mistakes of the Empire are used as defacto evidence of systemic injustice, while the mistakes of the other states are not used in the same manner. It is odd.
[ 2015.04.24 03:31:24 ] Tabor Murn > Thank you for your insight.
[ 2015.04.24 03:31:50 ] Aldrith Shutaq > Any time. As long as someone does not make me grumpy, of course.
[ 2015.04.24 03:32:08 ] Tabor Murn > I'll send you some warm milk next time we speak
[ 2015.04.24 03:32:16 ] Aldrith Shutaq > /emote disconnects with small nod and grin.
[ 2015.04.24 03:35:13 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Mm. Perhaps I was a little rude, there.
[ 2015.04.24 03:36:38 ] Aria Jenneth > ... well ... there might be some questions it's ... difficult to ask in a way that won't be a little distressing.
[ 2015.04.24 03:36:58 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > Well.. if Mr. Antolliere has an issue, he can always bring it to me. I am a mod but I try not to interject in a good discussion. I didn't think it was out of line however.
[ 2015.04.24 03:38:04 ] Tabor Murn > Maybe he's just taking a break to better hold his tongue? Sometimes it takes a great deal of self control to debate one's opponent.
[ 2015.04.24 03:38:16 ] Gwen Ikiryo > One needs to pose the difficult questions to recieve the, er, difficult answers, unfortunately. Have to, uh, cross a few lines, to learn things...
[ 2015.04.24 03:43:14 ] Belrick > I have a question, if I may speak and I am not interrupting anything too important.
[ 2015.04.24 03:45:34 ] Aria Jenneth > Um. I'm ... not sure you'd be interrupting much of anything, right now, Mr. Belrick.
[ 2015.04.24 03:45:58 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote nods "Sir Shutaq has retired for the night and so am I"
[ 2015.04.24 03:46:49 ] Shalinea Vyvorant > Have Blessed Dreams Ms Aspenstar!
[ 2015.04.24 03:47:13 ] Tabor Murn > Goodnight,
[ 2015.04.24 03:47:24 ] Lunarisse Aspenstar > /emote smiles "Have a Blessed Night"
[ 2015.04.24 03:47:26 ] Tabor Murn > clear weather and pleasant dreams
[ 2015.04.24 03:47:28 ] Belrick > Well, I'm curious what is the Amarrian, uhh Empire, not ethnicity, of course, the religion's opinion on the sisters of eve and the eve gate?
[ 2015.04.24 03:48:43 ] Aria Jenneth > Good night, Praefecta.
[ 2015.04.24 03:49:54 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I'd ... um. Be interested in hearing, as well.
[ 2015.04.24 03:50:35 ] Belrick > I mean, no one knows for sure, as far as I know, exactly what lies beyond the gate, but I'm curious if any theologians have ever piped in. I know the sisters have their belief, but I do not know what Amarrian theologians believe.
[ 2015.04.24 03:51:01 ] Aria Jenneth > ... well ... um. I don't ... actually know, but ...
[ 2015.04.24 03:51:28 ] Gwen Ikiryo > That's a very interesting question, but, er, I fear anyone who might've been up to answer it has left.
[ 2015.04.24 03:51:41 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I gather the Amarr believe that ... humanity was united under God before the fall. So, extrapolating from that ...
[ 2015.04.24 03:52:03 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Hm. Didn't miss Mithra use to be a Sister of Eve? I remember hearing that.
[ 2015.04.24 03:52:14 ] Aria Jenneth > ... it might be that they feel that the ... original believers were those who came through the gate.
[ 2015.04.24 03:52:19 ] Aria Jenneth > ...?
[ 2015.04.24 03:52:28 ] Aria Jenneth > ... Hm. I ... wasn't aware of that.
[ 2015.04.24 03:53:01 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Though, she isn't any more, obviously. I mean... I don't think I'm mistaken...
[ 2015.04.24 03:53:17 ] Gwen Ikiryo > She seems like the person to ask about reconciling the sects beliefs with the Amarrian Faith, is what I'm saying.
[ 2015.04.24 03:53:33 ] Aria Jenneth > *firmly nods*
[ 2015.04.24 03:53:55 ] Aria Jenneth > She's ... pretty knowledgeable, in ... any event.
[ 2015.04.24 03:53:56 ] Tabor Murn > When I started work for the Sisters in Lanngisi, an Amarrian friend of mine derided my choice by saying I had chosen to work for "wormhole worshippers"
[ 2015.04.24 03:54:14 ] Tabor Murn > the implication being that they worship neither a god nor the spirits.
[ 2015.04.24 03:54:43 ] Sid Afraldir > Oh man.
[ 2015.04.24 03:54:45 ] Sid Afraldir > Hi Shalee!
[ 2015.04.24 03:54:48 ] Aria Jenneth > Well ... and that they put a lot of theological weight into the Eve Gate.
[ 2015.04.24 03:55:08 ] Tabor Murn > hence the wormhole worshipper bit I imagine....
[ 2015.04.24 03:55:26 ] Gwen Ikiryo > The Sisters of Eve seem to be somewhere between the Amarrian conception of religion and the Achuran one. They, er, sort of let their faith and pursuits of knowledge mingle.
[ 2015.04.24 03:56:06 ] Tabor Murn > So they are a bit between the only two overtly faithful cultures because they have a religion?
[ 2015.04.24 03:56:08 ] Aria Jenneth > ... I'm ... afraid I ought to depart as well, pilots.
[ 2015.04.24 03:56:10 ] Aria Jenneth > *she yawns*
[ 2015.04.24 03:56:44 ] Gwen Ikiryo > ...Two overtly faithful cultures? What about the Intaki? ...Or the Vheriokor, for that matter?
[ 2015.04.24 03:56:58 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Oh, goodnight, Aria.
[ 2015.04.24 03:57:19 ] Tabor Murn > I'll admit ignorance when it comes to Intaki beliefs, Maybe they could be 3
[ 2015.04.24 03:57:41 ] Aria Jenneth > good night, Ms. Ikryo. Pilots ...
[ 2015.04.24 03:57:42 ] Tabor Murn > The Vhero are not one culture or one religion
[ 2015.04.24 03:57:43 ] Aria Jenneth > Jenneth out.
[ 2015.04.24 03:58:09 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Vherokior culture is very religious, though, is what I mean.
[ 2015.04.24 03:58:29 ] Tabor Murn > religion implies an institution
[ 2015.04.24 03:58:53 ] Gwen Ikiryo > I'd disagree with that. That's an Amarrian conception.
[ 2015.04.24 03:59:16 ] Gwen Ikiryo > Religion requires a set of spiritual beliefs that people follow.
[ 2015.04.24 03:59:18 ] Tabor Murn > I think perhaps you confuse spirituality and philosophy for religion
[ 2015.04.24 03:59:47 ] Tabor Murn > but no set group follow the same beliefs in our culture
[ 2015.04.24 04:00:14 ] Belrick > If I may say, if religion has to be institutionalized, why does the term "organized religion" exist? It would seem to be a linguistic farce, although I admit translations and the devices through which I'm reading communications could be the problem.
[ 2015.04.24 04:00:17 ] Gwen Ikiryo > /emote frowns. "I, er, do no such thing. There's no difference between the three - The idea that there is is imperiocentic."
[ 2015.04.24 04:01:04 ] Tabor Murn > If one people follow different beliefs, different gods and spirits, they are not one people.
[ 2015.04.24 04:01:22 ] Belrick > or at least they are not of one religion?
**signal corrupted***
