Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque

The Imperial Society of Scepter and Crown.


    RP - debating in The Good Word

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    Nicoletta Mithra
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    Posts : 9
    Join date : 2013-09-09
    Age : 33
    Location : Germany

    RP - debating in The Good Word

    Post by Nicoletta Mithra on Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:05 pm

    [ 2015.01.23 00:23:12 ] Samira Kernher > "Because everyone is equal in your eyes, I suppose, Ms. Mithra?"
    [ 2015.01.23 00:23:32 ] Samira Kernher > /emote asks that with a terse tone.
    [ 2015.01.23 00:24:04 ] Erin Savonarola > /emote gives Nico a level look, one that says 'really?' before looking back to Vincent "You're Gallente, did you ever see that one holo show, ummm, Mac something or other. Where the Sebbie made a catapult out of some branches, string and his tribal
    [ 2015.01.23 00:24:22 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Because I think everyone id different. Like the stones in a cathedral: Each stone unique, yet made to fit.
    [ 2015.01.23 00:24:47 ] Erin Savonarola > necklace? Threw rocks, used his watch crystal to focus the sunlight on the necklace so it broke at just the right time?"
    [ 2015.01.23 00:25:15 ] Samira Kernher > /emote shakes her head to herself.
    [ 2015.01.23 00:26:27 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Lt. Kernher, can you recite Scriptures, Book I 1:4?
    [ 2015.01.23 00:28:58 ] Samira Kernher > "I can," she says simply, but not following it up with anything further.
    [ 2015.01.23 00:29:46 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Do you doubt, then, that God gave a place and purpose to everything in creation? *Nico perks an eybrow and Samira.*
    [ 2015.01.23 00:30:51 ] Samira Kernher > "The Lord gave everything a place, yes. And that place is in obscurity for those who embraced sin and heresy."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:31:20 ] Nicoletta Mithra > So, you want to say God intended sin and heresy?
    [ 2015.01.23 00:32:08 ] Nicoletta Mithra > And that obscurity is an actual place and purpose? *Nico perks her eyebrow even further.*
    [ 2015.01.23 00:32:30 ] Samira Kernher > "He intended free will."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:32:37 ] Erin Savonarola > "God intended free will. I'm sure that includes all the negatives that come with."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:33:13 ] Samira Kernher > "He intended free will, and those who have chosen evil are punished for that choice."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:34:41 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Ah, yes. But did God intend those people who chose evil, to choose evil, as the Contessa implies?
    [ 2015.01.23 00:34:49 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Is God not a good God?
    [ 2015.01.23 00:35:13 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Does he not have no tolerance for evil?
    [ 2015.01.23 00:35:36 ] Samira Kernher > "He has no tolerance for it."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:35:43 ] Erin Savonarola > "I don't think God intends for people to do anything. That's free will. We have a choice."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:37:12 ] Nicoletta Mithra > What purpose, then, Contessa, did he bestow on those beings with 'free choice'? Did he not want us to make good use of this ability? Is he really indifferent to how we choose? And if he is not, how can he not intend for people to do anything?
    [ 2015.01.23 00:37:28 ] Erin Savonarola > "We are not pieces on a chessboard, moved about, everything micromanaged by God. We are living, thinking beings, offered a chance to do His work. He wants us to, it pleases him when we chose righteousness. If we were forced to be righteous, I doubt
    [ 2015.01.23 00:37:36 ] Erin Savonarola > it would please him."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:37:53 ] Erin Savonarola > "He's not indifferent. He's just not a micromanager."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:39:00 ] Nicoletta Mithra > But you said yourself, earlier: "I don't think God intends for people to do anything." no? So you rescind that view?
    [ 2015.01.23 00:40:44 ] Erin Savonarola > "I don't. What I mean is this. If I intend for my slave to go get me wine, I tell them and they get me wine. God does not plan our lives. God wants wine, righteousness, but we have to chose to bring it to Him."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:42:36 ] Nicoletta Mithra > But that is a different view from Him not intending anything for us, no? Rather you now seem to say that God does intend us to be righteous, but not forced. Rather than forced his intention for us is to choose righteousness, freely. At least that's...
    [ 2015.01.23 00:42:49 ] Nicoletta Mithra > what you new view seems to be like to me.
    [ 2015.01.23 00:42:58 ] Erin Savonarola > "If you will excuse me, I am being told that dinner is ready and if I delay longer, it will get cold."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:43:10 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Oh, of course Contessa.
    [ 2015.01.23 00:45:33 ] Nicoletta Mithra > It is sad the Contessa had to go, just as I was about to agree with her.
    [ 2015.01.23 00:48:28 ] Samira Kernher > "What point were you trying to make, Ms. Mithra?"
    [ 2015.01.23 00:50:39 ] Nicoletta Mithra > It seems to be the case, to me, that God in fact intends for us to make good use of our ability to choose. And that he of course is the cuase of all that is good. And that evil is rather uncaused, as it is not something in itself, but rather consists...
    [ 2015.01.23 00:53:34 ] Nicoletta Mithra > in something staying behind of whatever purpose God bestowed on it.
    [ 2015.01.23 00:54:47 ] Samira Kernher > "God wants us to be good. When people are evil, they have to be punished for it."
    [ 2015.01.23 00:55:41 ] Nicoletta Mithra > So, it seems pretty clear to me that God did in fact bestow a place and purpose to everyone - and that those that choose sin and leave righteousness behind do so in choosing not to follow that calling from God to fullfill that purose and take that...
    [ 2015.01.23 00:56:37 ] Nicoletta Mithra > place. And that those end up in obscurity exactly for that reason, because they are against creation, they end up uncreated.
    [ 2015.01.23 00:59:39 ] Samira Kernher > "But until they are, they damage to God's works."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:01:52 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Sure: But our primary duty is to guide them away from that self-descrutive path. Reprimanding them ceaselessly, though, seldomly achieves that. Most of the times it causes them to be even more stubborn about it. And much less does violence solve the...
    [ 2015.01.23 01:03:30 ] Nicoletta Mithra > issue productively. Therefore it has to be taken refuge to, if the other paths are, for one, really closed up and second, if there is no change in sight and there is real damage done to other parts of creation than themselves, which needs to be...
    [ 2015.01.23 01:03:40 ] Nicoletta Mithra > prevented, if at the cost of a soul.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:03:53 ] Samira Kernher > "Good behavior is rewarded. Bad behavior is punished."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:04:28 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Good behaviour is it's own reward: bad behaviour it's own punishment.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:04:43 ] Samira Kernher > "That sounds like an excuse to just do nothing."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:05:14 ] Nicoletta Mithra > But in truth it's meaning is different. It speaks of responsibility.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:09:40 ] Samira Kernher > "What responsibility? Personal. Very few people have any personal integrity or take any responsibility for themselves. That's why it has to be enforced by God's Chosen; the Destiny of Faith."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:09:50 ] Samira Kernher > *Personal?
    [ 2015.01.23 01:13:49 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Now, lt. Kernher: Why do you choose good over evil? Because you avoid punishment and seek reward?
    [ 2015.01.23 01:15:15 ] Samira Kernher > "Because it is what's right."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:15:37 ] Jennifer Starfall > /emote smiles and listens.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:16:08 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Ah. Now, if you are able to act on that motivation, why should others not be able to?
    [ 2015.01.23 01:16:18 ] Nicoletta Mithra > /emote perks an eyebrow.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:19:06 ] Samira Kernher > "Because I had had to be taught that."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:19:26 ] Samira Kernher > "Reward and punishment are tools of teaching. They exist naturally in nature, even, created by God."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:20:18 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Of course they do: That is why good actions are their own reward and bad their own punishment. And if you were able to learn, why, then, should others not be able to learn?
    [ 2015.01.23 01:22:26 ] Samira Kernher > "I expect them to learn like I learned."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:23:31 ] Jennifer Starfall > /emote starts to say something but stops.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:24:26 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Well, then. Given that, is the true Destiny of Faith not rather in teaching responsibility, then perpetually doling out reward and punishment?
    [ 2015.01.23 01:25:01 ] Samira Kernher > "The two are linked."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:25:27 ] Samira Kernher > "Humans are flawed and fall to temptation when there is not enforcement."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:26:37 ] Nicoletta Mithra > They are linked: But one is for the purpose of the other. And what is for the purpose of something is by nature less valuable than that which is the purpose.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:27:28 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Also: Didn't want God us to choose righteousness freely? But how can we do so, if enforcement is needed?
    [ 2015.01.23 01:27:51 ] Samira Kernher > "Freedom by thought is different from freedom by action."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:28:55 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Now, I'm sure that God wants us to choose righteousness by though as well as action: And both freely. And gievn that humans have the ability to reason...
    [ 2015.01.23 01:30:01 ] Samira Kernher > "When people are given the choice to choose temptation, they will choose it because it is easier and more rewarding. So you keep that choice away from them."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:30:12 ] Samira Kernher > "It won't teach them responsibility by itself, but it will keep them from harming themselves and others."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:31:06 ] Nicoletta Mithra > and reason enables us to see and understand that good actions are their own reward, while bad actions their own punishment, we can see that it is an error - one easily made, maybe - to assume that evil is more rewarding and easier. God didn't create...
    [ 2015.01.23 01:31:52 ] Nicoletta Mithra > a world, in which evil is really easier or more rewarding. It only seems like that in our parting from God and thus, reason.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:33:03 ] Samira Kernher > "We have to be taught proper reasoning."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:33:14 ] Nicoletta Mithra > Sure.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:34:39 ] Nicoletta Mithra > But once taught reason and the principle of reward and punishment, seeing that good actions are their own reward and evil their own punishment, people have reason to choose the one over the other, without coersion.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:36:16 ] Samira Kernher > "you act like this is some easy thing. We wouldn't need slavery if it was. The cluster wouldn't still be populated by infidels if it was."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:36:28 ] Samira Kernher > "People don't want to be taught."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:38:16 ] Jennifer Starfall > And were you teaching me?
    [ 2015.01.23 01:38:34 ] Samira Kernher > "I was trying to."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:39:00 ] Nicoletta Mithra > /emote shrugs. "I never said it's an easy thing to achieve. But it's an easy thing to recognize, if one uses reason. And that is why one should strive to teach responsibility as one's end and regard punishment and reward as means, as is proper. ...
    [ 2015.01.23 01:40:13 ] Nicoletta Mithra > "and people are much more willing to learn, if one is approaching them with mercy, beningness and love: Just as the Scriptures describe the virtues of the Emperor."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:40:30 ] Samira Kernher > "Ms. Mithra, you've been implying that reward and punishment are not necessary. That you can just rely on human nature to encourage people to right and reason. You've implied you'd rather forgive bad behavior than punish it."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:41:40 ] Nicoletta Mithra > No: I have been implying that ultimately external reward and punishment are not necessary and that their true purpose is to make themselves superfluous.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:42:16 ] Samira Kernher > "Mercy, benignness, and love, when given while a person is acting poorly, will only encourage them to continue to act poorly because it is clear they will receive that kind of positive attention without any need to earn it."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:43:54 ] Nicoletta Mithra > /emote perks an eyebrow. "I hope you will never have children, while holding on to that opinion, as when you punish them, whithout mery, benigness and love, they will learn very little, if at anything at all."
    [ 2015.01.23 01:44:09 ] Samira Kernher > /emote glares.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:46:01 ] Samira Kernher > /emote clenches her jaw and looks around, her expression sour. She then disconnects her feed.
    [ 2015.01.23 01:46:30 ] Nicoletta Mithra > /emote perks an eyebrow. "Must have hit a nerve, there."

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